The big idea: If you build leaders, the business happens.
Transcript
Leadership vs management the podcast
welcome to leadership talk
00:04
the official waymaker podcast where we
00:07
explore
00:08
how your organization can achieve more
00:11
by doing less
00:22
welcome to leadership talk the official
00:24
way maker podcast i’m your host craig
00:26
hunman
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with me as always is stuart leo ceo and
00:30
founder of
00:31
wayne maker how are you mate good
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morning craig i’m
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i’m great um uh you know it’s it’s it’s
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uh
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it’s winter time here in australia which
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means
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yeah it’s not rest it’s not really in
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queensland though
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i know but you know we did have a
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thunderstorm just then it’s beautiful
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blue skies now
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hey uh life is pretty good isn’t it at
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20 something degrees in winter
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so you and i have been actually talking
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for probably the last
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hour and i thought we’ll probably
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actually hit record
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[Music]
01:03
yeah capture some of these insights what
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do you think
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yeah absolutely i think that’s um uh
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maybe what our listeners don’t always
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understand is that
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before most podcasts there’s probably
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about 20 30 40 minutes of just hello how
01:17
are you going
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um so uh yeah we do get to the point
01:20
where we go whoops we better record a
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podcast yeah we probably actually
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probably should record but um
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so and we were talking about uh a whole
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bunch of stuff
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um around the idea of leadership and
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we wanted to talk today on this podcast
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about
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liv well leadership 101 but from a
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waymaker perspective
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yeah yeah um and and i think that’s
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because i mean waymaker as a platform
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is designed to help you be
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a better leader and to help you build
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better leaders
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so it’s uh at its heart
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um we know that better leaders build
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better organizations
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and um build self-sustaining
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organizations
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um yeah so that’s that’s really at the
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very core
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and heart of what we’re doing yes
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waymaker is software
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and waymaker is a toolkit of stuff but
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at its essence if we’re not helping
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people
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um become leaders and be better leaders
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then i don’t think we’re doing our job
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and so yeah that’s the big idea for
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today that’s awesome and
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obviously stew that if you’ve got a
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great business idea and you start a
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business or
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obviously you’re a great leader right
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yeah i think
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sure i think the
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um the fear sometimes in talking about
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leadership
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um is most people go i’m not a great
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leader
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i can’t talk about leadership and that’s
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like
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people going well i’m not a great cook i
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can’t talk about cooking
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no everybody loves to cook
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we all lead in different ways in
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different levels in different things
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as we go about our day you know
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leadership um
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it’s a skill it’s a muscle that we use
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um
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i’m not sitting here pretending to be
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the world’s greatest leaders if i lined
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up all my leadership mistakes
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against all my leadership successes i’d
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probably cry and go home
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but i think leadership is one of those
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things that if we
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don’t talk about um we’re not leading
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and and so we need to
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we need to grab the bull by the horns
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and go okay one of the
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ultimate things that powers an
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organization
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is this gift of leadership that um that
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we have
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as people and how do we grow it and
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build it how do we become students of
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leadership
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in order to be better leaders and one of
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the things that i’ve heard said about
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a lot of bosses and ceos over time not
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not specifically the ones that i’ve
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worked in but you know you just hear
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this
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saying that oh they’re a great manager
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but they’re not a great leader
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what’s what’s the difference how yeah
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how do we pull that difference apart
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um so i think i think this is this
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speaks to the essence of a lot of what
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we’re going to talk today so let’s set
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this context
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we come from the viewpoint that
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leadership and management are two very
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different things
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and the problem is
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people execute the skills of leadership
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and management
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and sometimes we confuse
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the skills of leadership in the skills
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of management and i think we should put
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it this way
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a human being leads and manages
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all at the same time and it’s at
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different
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times is flexing the muscle of
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leadership versus flexing the muscle of
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management
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if i could put it that way and so if we
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put a real quick definition
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um to what leadership and management is
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um
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uh and and i think we’ve absorbed this
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from from great leaders before us this
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isn’t our own
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thinking but leadership is simply
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getting somebody from point a to point b
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um so how do we get somebody or a group
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of people
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from point a to point b i love that um
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it’s that thinking is what sits at the
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very heart of our methodology the
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experience curve
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beginning of point to end of point point
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a to point b
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how do we get a group of people from an
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idea
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to mature market leadership and
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that’s that’s that’s the great
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excitement of organizations management
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is actually helping people do the right
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things at the right time in the right
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way
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on the journey from point a to point b
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and that’s two very different things and
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um they require two different different
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skill sets
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to get people from point a to point b
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and i think what often happens is we
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look at individuals and people and we go
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they’re a great leader but not a great
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manager they’re a great manager and not
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a great leader and
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and all good leaders should be good
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managers and all good managers should be
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good leaders
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and uh and that is a sometimes
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controversial statement is that is that
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in some wonderful magical world
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[Laughter]
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yeah he’s this world we prepared earlier
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well no no it’s not some of the best
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leaders i’ve
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worked for with or around have been
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considered the lowest levels of
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management in an organization
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and so what we can’t confuse
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is oh they’re the ceo or they’re the
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business
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x person therefore they’re the leader
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well no a leader is just somebody who
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gets
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somebody or a group of people from point
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a to point b um
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and and this the skill of management is
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helping them do the right things at the
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right time
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in the right way uh along that journey
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and so
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um we should we should recognize that
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great leadership and great management
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actually is a skill that needs to sit in
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every member of the organization
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um not what is often called the
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leadership team
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or you know that’s just i i really hate
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that term
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um because you you run an organization a
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business
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that is a leadership team um uh
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come up with another term for it uh
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because you create this wall between
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people who think they are leaders and
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who think they’re not leaders if there’s
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somebody in that organization that has a
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responsibility to meet an objective
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then they are leading and managing to
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get to that objective
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and organizations that i’ve just had um
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you know a great opportunity to thrive
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in and you would
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you would probably think back in times
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like this yourself
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is when that culture permeates that
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there isn’t this one group of people who
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are leaders and this other group of
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people who are doers
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but rather leadership is a skill a
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muscle that we learn and do
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and management is a skill a muscle that
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we learn and do
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and when we do that we transform our
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thinking we change our mindset
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and we begin to think differently about
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how we work with people
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and that i think is the very first step
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in thinking about leadership
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this great um philosopher once said
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stuart lee
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sorry for laughing if if you build
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leaders your business happens
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i think um yeah because i think by
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default good leaders
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do recognize good management um
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and i think we should put a definition
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to that um
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or an explanation to that yeah leaders
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lead
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people managers
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are men or people manage systems
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i stumbled across my own things let me
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say that again leaders lead people
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and people manage systems right
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we we do not manage uh people
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and we do not lead systems
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so leaders lead people
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people manage systems
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people never manage people
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and people never lead systems and if we
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should never
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should never should never yeah if we get
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that ass about
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uh yeah then we tend to end up on our
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ass and so yeah
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i think often um if we look back on our
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own
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errors or mistakes in leadership and
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management often it’s where we get those
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two things wrong
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and so the 101 in leadership and
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management
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leadership getting people from a to b
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management helping them do the right
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things on the right way
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leaders lead people people manage
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systems
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but leaders never manage people
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and we leave bad
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leaders when we feel managed and not
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led and so i think um
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i’ve done that to people they’re my
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mistakes in the past and i’ve had that
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done to me
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and and that they’re the mistakes i’ve
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felt in the past and when i’ve done it
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the right way around
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it’s transformational to the
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relationship
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it’s when we are humans first and
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workers second and that’s that’s
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transformational often
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to many organizations to get that
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foundation right
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and and so let me just repeat it again
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um leadership is getting people or
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somebody from point a to point b
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management is making sure they do the
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right things in the right way at the
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right time
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leaders lead people and people manage
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systems but people
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never manage people
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and people should never lead systems uh
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when we get that ass about we end up on
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our ass
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so i think if we establish that as
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foundational thinking then we’ve got
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somewhere to go
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that’s cool so we we’re um
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we’re talking about like maybe a
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different approach to leadership
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through waymaker so the the waymaker
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way the waymaker approach
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approach to leadership and you’ve got
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some
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well we have some some some frameworks
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to think through
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in terms of the waymaker approach to
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leadership yeah and look
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um our job is to give you a platform
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a software platform and a methodology
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what you do with it uh up to you you can
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choose to use this as much or as little
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as you like but we’re here to help you
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hopefully this helps you do the right
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things in the right way and helps you
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lead people towards better goals
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and so we talk about a waymaker mantra
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and waymaker is designed
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under the context of this mantra so
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the waymaker mantra is
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show the way build the system train the
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leader
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hold them accountable and help them win
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it’s it’s a
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five-step mantra
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and it actually intertwines the ideas
12:33
and skills and muscles of leadership and
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management
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through that mantra so i’ll say it again
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um that the waymaker mantra is show the
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way
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let me say that again show the way i’ve
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got to remember my own mentor show the
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way
12:47
um build the system train the leader
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hold them accountable
12:50
help them win and we should unpack that
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a little bit because
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i want to show how the platform has that
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ethos baked into it so it helps you be a
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better leader and helps your
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you build better leaders awesome all
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right well let’s start with show the way
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then
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well easy um easy easy
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the the first um the first way we show
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the way
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is is actually when you turn on waymaker
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you take your first diagnostic
13:21
and you end up with a benchmark we call
13:24
it an x-score
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and it plants you on a curve and we
13:28
talked about getting from point a to
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point b
13:30
point a in waymaker is an idea this
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organization was once an idea
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point b um is
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it’s probably more like point z but it’s
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market leadership it’s the top of the
13:44
curve ready for the next
13:46
point a and so we want to help people
13:49
organizations get from point a to point
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b and so the very first thing we do is
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show the way
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and to show the way you have to know
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where you are
13:58
on the way and so our diagnostic
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reveals a benchmark and that benchmark
14:03
is an x score
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and you’re going to find a score
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somewhere between 20 or 30 percent
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up to 80 90 100 depending on how good
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you are
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if you’re in your early stages of
14:16
maturity
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you’ll be around 30 40 50
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on the experience curve if you’re
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demonstrating maturity
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then you’re going to be much higher but
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we don’t just leave that as an
14:30
organizational level
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maturity curve um if you’ve been
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listening to any of our podcasts and
14:36
it’s great to hear feedback from
14:38
listeners who have actually you’ll know
14:41
that when we talk about
14:42
um the the system of business
14:46
that it’s actually a system of systems
14:48
and that we we break that up into
14:50
vision market strategy business model
14:52
customer experience and employee
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experience and so
14:56
we then allow that way to break down
15:00
into eight curves and
15:03
eight experience curves vision curve
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market curve
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strategy curve business model curve
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sales marketing service and employee
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expert
15:12
employee experience curve and so there
15:14
is circa
15:16
250 ish data points across those curves
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um which when when you take that
15:22
diagnostic
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is giving you a point on each of those
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curves to start from
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so the very first thing we do is we show
15:30
somebody where they are
15:32
not an individual button organization um
15:35
uh so we we think the the first thing
15:38
you need to know in getting from point a
15:39
to point b
15:40
is where you are between point a and
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point b
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that’s kind of helpful and then if you
15:45
then know
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what the next steps are
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which are really the best practice
15:51
activities on the experience curve
15:53
you can actually start to look ahead and
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go oh my most likely next steps in sales
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or marketing or service
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are these three four or five things so
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we’re showing the way
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and we want leaders to pick up that
16:05
mantra and go are we showing the way
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are we showing you what’s next are we
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are we lifting your eyes forward to how
16:12
you
16:12
improve and how your team improves and
16:14
how the organization improves
16:15
in order to get to our vision and our
16:17
goal make sense great
16:18
yep and so when we talk about build the
16:21
system which is the second point
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are we talking about the system that
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we’ve built for organizations or are we
16:26
saying
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now that you know now that you know what
16:28
your next few steps are now you go off
16:30
and build a system
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yeah the point is that um good
16:34
leadership is about replacing yourself
16:36
and so step one is show the way so you
16:39
have a set of skills
16:40
let’s say you’re an organization of one
16:42
and you hire the next person
16:44
they come in day one what are you gonna
16:46
do you’re gonna start to show them
16:48
how to do the tasks and the things that
16:50
you want them to do
16:52
so you’re going to show the way you’re
16:53
going to start to transfer skills
16:56
so in our methodology skills always
16:59
leads systems and right and so we
17:02
have a set of skills and we go great how
17:05
do we
17:06
um compound the effect of those skills
17:08
we build a system
17:09
so we’re going to show the way um we’re
17:13
going to
17:14
build a system we’re then going to train
17:17
a leader and so
17:19
the very first thing we’re going to do
17:21
is recognize that we need to systemize
17:24
some of the skills we have
17:25
and so when we talk about skills and
17:27
systems on the experience curve
17:30
we’re talking about skills as things i
17:32
know how to do
17:33
and systems as processes tools
17:36
or software that help us do something
17:39
more effectively
17:40
so a tool or a process is like a hammer
17:43
um
17:44
great i’ve got a hammer do i have the
17:45
skills to hit the nail on the head
17:48
great a skill a system a hammer is a
17:50
system
17:51
um it’s a tool it’s a process it’s
17:55
and so we we think about systems like
17:57
tools
17:58
and so as i get more advanced i might
18:00
move from hitting a hammer
18:02
to maybe um
18:05
breaking up concrete now i need a
18:07
jackhammer i’ve got a way more powerful
18:09
hammer you get where i’m going i won’t
18:10
go any further
18:11
because my analogy so this knowledge is
18:13
going to break down
18:13
[Laughter]
18:15
so um our mantra you could go to a
18:18
wrecking ball you could go to a wrecking
18:19
ball after that thank you
18:20
yeah yeah right up to dynamite blowing
18:24
up a building yeah
18:26
sorry uh i think you get the point yeah
18:29
the
18:30
the message here is the mantra is um
18:32
show the way
18:33
build the system train the leader so
18:35
where how do we transfer skills out of
18:37
me
18:38
and and i’ve got to lead and i’ve got to
18:41
manage
18:42
so i’m going to show this person where
18:43
they’re going and i’m going to give them
18:45
the skills
18:46
to how to do the right thing in the
18:47
right way at the right time cool
18:49
yeah that’s a system does that make
18:51
sense yep
18:52
and and so when we’re talking about
18:54
training the leader then we’re
18:56
we’re talking about how to uh equip them
18:59
to use the tools
19:01
um most effectively to reach point b
19:04
yes correct yeah and in doing so
19:08
um there’s a there’s a hard skill and a
19:10
soft skill transferred
19:12
the hard skill is i know how to pick up
19:15
the hammer and hit it
19:16
the soft skill is oh i’m beginning to
19:19
understand what you’re doing
19:21
you’re you’re teaching showing helping
19:24
me understand how this hammer works to
19:26
build the house
19:26
i see the house and and so the soft
19:29
skill
19:30
is really where the leadership starts to
19:32
to grow and so
19:33
we should never think about building the
19:37
system and training the leader as
19:38
just pure functional um because if we
19:41
are to
19:43
build the system and train the leader we
19:45
should teach them how to do it for the
19:46
next person
19:48
and um and so when i come in and see
19:52
oh this is how i use this tool i’m being
19:54
trained on how to use it
19:55
i’m only effective if i can do that for
19:58
the next person
19:59
and otherwise we actually haven’t
20:03
we haven’t transferred leadership we
20:04
haven’t taught leadership we haven’t
20:06
showed them
20:07
showed them how to help another person
20:09
get from point a
20:10
to point b we haven’t replicated
20:12
ourselves so leadership is in the
20:14
business of replication and compounding
20:17
okay can we park on train the leader
20:19
just just for a moment seems so
20:21
this episode is all about leadership um
20:25
stu you talk about the five functions of
20:26
a leader um
20:28
and so that might actually be a really
20:29
cool framework to talk about well how
20:31
how might we actually go about training
20:33
leaders or equipping leaders
20:35
to get to point b yeah and look this
20:38
um this isn’t rocket science it’s just a
20:41
little mantra
20:43
to be honest i’ve i’ve learned and
20:45
adapted over the years
20:46
and i try and practice myself and i’ve
20:50
noticed it as
20:52
as i moved into coaching and consulting
20:54
with other senior leaders
20:56
that the biggest problem we have as
20:59
leaders
21:01
is time to step back um time to get out
21:04
of the doing
21:05
and into the thinking and so this little
21:07
five function it’s just
21:09
it sits neatly under the waymaker way
21:12
which is just as a leader you need you
21:14
need to think you need to plan
21:17
you need to inspire you need to equip um
21:20
and you need to empower
21:22
um and it’s really basic
21:26
but that first thing is thinking and you
21:28
could almost take your diary
21:30
and you could look at it and you could
21:32
go how much of my diary
21:34
is actually spent on thinking time
21:38
and most of the leaders that
21:42
that i listened to in those early days
21:44
of of listening around how their
21:46
organization is going is
21:48
is actually just swamped i don’t have
21:50
time to think
21:52
and in fact one of the first rules of
21:55
war
21:55
is to disorient your enemy it’s you know
21:59
go and read the art of war disorienting
22:02
your enemy is one of the first steps
22:05
and most powerful steps to make them
22:08
useless
22:09
and so some of the greatest battles um
22:12
in history have been won from the
22:14
smaller force disorienting the larger
22:16
force
22:17
and so many of our leaders and people
22:20
leading
22:21
get disoriented because they don’t step
22:24
back to re-orient um
22:28
why am i doing what i’m doing what am i
22:30
achieving in doing this
22:32
how are we going what’s working what’s
22:33
not what are the
22:35
divergent voices saying what are the
22:37
who’s who’s arguing against me who’s
22:39
telling me different things to what i
22:41
want to hear what’s that what’s going on
22:43
where’s the market moving what are our
22:45
customers really saying
22:46
um what’s the bs coming up the line that
22:49
i need to ignore and
22:50
what’s the truth coming through that
22:52
i’ve got to grab a hold of and you know
22:54
all those things
22:55
take time and my worst periods of life
22:59
have been periods when i’ve been over
23:01
scheduled over hyped over busy
23:04
and my best and most profitable times of
23:07
life
23:08
have been when there’s been margins at
23:11
the edges
23:12
and because that’s the time
23:15
to think which leads to better planning
23:18
so this think plan inspired
23:20
thinking time thinking actually helps
23:22
you be a better planner
23:24
um bringing the right people around you
23:26
thinking about the right things to do
23:29
um and once you’ve planned you’ve got to
23:32
go and sell that plan
23:35
hopefully you’re able to inspire others
23:37
who have been involved in thinking
23:38
through that planning with where that’s
23:40
going to get us
23:40
it’s the leadership bit and then we’ve
23:43
got to
23:44
um what do i say equipment in power
23:46
which is very much the
23:47
okay who’s on board what what skills and
23:50
systems do you need
23:51
um great you’ve got them now get on with
23:54
it
23:54
um and so that little kind of five
23:57
functions of leadership
23:58
is a little mantra that i try and live
24:00
by and catch myself around and
24:02
help others in our team and and
24:04
community live around too
24:06
so rewind 20 years ago stu we you and i
24:09
were very good at
24:10
time spent thinking with it
24:13
with a red wine we were quite
24:15
disciplined at the thinking stage
24:17
i think planning a few less distractions
24:19
at the time
24:22
yeah we had no kids that was wives
24:23
children yeah businesses
24:25
all that sort of stuff but um it’s
24:28
really great to see that you know
24:29
waymaker has
24:30
actually like gone through the whole
24:32
five and here we are empowering
24:35
people to go and do it themselves well i
24:37
hope so yeah i know it is cool
24:39
but yeah look i think um
24:42
uh i think when you’re young and ideal
24:44
you do have time
24:46
to think and imagine and come up with
24:48
world-changing ideas
24:52
you’ve got to have reality checks on
24:53
those and
24:55
think about how to manage through them
24:56
you know we’re talking about leadership
24:58
and management and
25:01
you know i i often tell the story when i
25:03
lived in
25:04
corporation world which was some of the
25:07
best and worst times of my life but so
25:08
often
25:11
a leader a ceo would come in and
25:15
sell a vision to us and they’d go hey
25:18
we’re going to have an amazing year
25:19
we’re going to sell so much it’s going
25:20
to be amazing
25:21
we’re going to be the market leaders and
25:24
blah blah blah blah
25:26
and um somewhere in there
25:29
uh would drop out that our targets had
25:33
increased
25:34
um but our resources had decreased
25:39
and that the reality of the equipping
25:43
for the vision um uh
25:46
didn’t exist and right and and
25:49
and what was appearing was a gap and you
25:52
know in this podcast and in the
25:53
waymaker world we always talk about you
25:55
know the enemy is the gap
25:58
would be this chasm between somebody
26:01
thinking they’re doing great leadership
26:03
things which is selling big visions
26:06
but then doing really bad management
26:08
things by going
26:10
okay we’re not going to give you the
26:13
skills and the resources to get there
26:15
and when you create that gap when
26:18
when you don’t manage well which is
26:21
equipping and empowering people
26:23
um sorry um providing people with the
26:26
right skills and systems
26:27
um to do the right things at the right
26:30
time
26:30
um then you all you create is just
26:34
uh that’s that’s just that’s just ivory
26:37
tower talk
26:38
um and and so the idea of leadership is
26:42
to
26:42
think plan inspired but to provide the
26:45
right level of skills
26:47
and resources and tools to get the job
26:50
done
26:51
no builder in his or her right mind
26:54
walks up to a building site and says
26:55
we’re going to build a house
26:57
and then says but we don’t have hammers
26:58
drills timber and materials
27:01
and you know just imagine what would go
27:03
on if that happened
27:05
and if you take that and you put that
27:07
into typical organization land and
27:09
corporate world
27:10
how often does that happen and so part
27:12
of waymaker is helping
27:14
um educate people on the ridiculous of
27:17
that moment
27:18
so they can actually reap the benefit of
27:21
great leadership
27:22
and great management um and achieve more
27:25
while doing less
27:27
so we’ve talked about showing the way
27:29
build the system train the leader and
27:30
that actually
27:32
what you’ve just talked about takes us
27:33
to our fourth point we just hold them
27:34
accountable and i just have a question
27:36
on that one before you
27:37
start roofing is um it’s it’s both
27:40
it’s both uh downwards in the
27:44
organizational chart and upwards i would
27:46
imagine like the accountability
27:48
is is both ways that’s right uh
27:52
and and that’s how waymaker um helps
27:54
organizations because
27:58
it’s transparent it’s accountable um
28:02
anybody i’ll talk talk about us as
28:04
waymaker
28:05
anybody inside waymaker can see
28:07
waymaker’s
28:08
long-term strategic goal and all our
28:10
short-term
28:12
goals to get there and
28:16
you can see your name you can see what
28:17
it is you can see the progress towards
28:19
it
28:20
it’s accountable that that’s why we love
28:22
the the foundational methodology of of
28:25
okrs as a goal-setting methodology
28:27
it’s transparent it’s accountable it’s
28:29
clear at any given moment in time
28:32
i can see exactly where an individual is
28:35
at and that individual can see exactly
28:37
where i’m at if we’re all climbing the
28:39
mountain getting from point a to point b
28:42
then we all need to know where each
28:43
other’s at that’s kind of the first rule
28:46
of
28:46
outdoor air isn’t it um if you can’t see
28:50
your team
28:50
stop walking um so if you can’t see your
28:54
team and what they’re doing
28:56
stop get on the same page and get going
29:00
were you in boy scouts just out of
29:02
curiosity i i
29:04
did what our school’s equivalent was it
29:06
was called outdoor education and i i
29:08
liked it
29:08
i took it all the way through to year 12
29:10
before uh before uni
29:12
and then i spent a year in england
29:14
actually being a boy scout
29:17
kind of throwing a seat i didn’t
29:18
thirteen years around yeah it was lots
29:20
of fun
29:22
backwards back when i looked like yeah
29:24
yeah yeah that’s it
29:26
didn’t we all didn’t we all uh show the
29:29
way
29:29
build the system train the leader hold
29:31
them accountable and then lastly
29:33
help them win um
29:37
you only win if the people around you
29:40
win
29:40
that’s where this is getting to you know
29:42
waymaker is
29:44
set up to quickly diagnose gaps
29:47
in skills and systems across the system
29:50
of business
29:51
to set a roadmap of where we need to get
29:53
to and then to
29:55
make clear all the goals that need to
29:57
happen
29:58
and and that’s that means that if i have
30:02
a goal
30:03
and there’s three people around me with
30:06
goals
30:07
and let’s say i’m leading them as a team
30:10
then
30:10
i need to make sure that they’ve got the
30:13
right goals
30:14
and that those goals actually lead
30:16
towards my goals being achieved
30:18
[Music]
30:19
that’s kind of common sense if we’re all
30:22
moving together
30:23
doing different things but in the same
30:25
direction then we achieve more
30:27
if we’re all doing different things
30:29
moving in different directions
30:31
then we’re all doing more and achieving
30:33
less and we need to
30:35
do less and achieve more we need we need
30:37
to make sure we’re all working